Ep #3 – First Crack

Home  |  Ep #3 – First Crack
70K 685 42


<Dave> Welcome, Dave Borton, Mill City Roasters along with

<Joe> Joe Marrrocco

<Dave> the invincible Joe Marrocco. Today we’re going to be talking about first crack and I’m going to warn you right now Joe is going deeply into the weeds of science.So, this is going to be one of those segments where there’s tons to glean,lots to learn, so don’t feel like you’re going to be able to capture all of this in one segment. If we run long i’m going to feel for a natural breaking point and we’ll chop it down into manageable bites for you. Before we get into first crack,Joe and I have just returned from Roasters Guild, that’s part of what I’d Like to discuss. Then, we’ve got a commercial, so Joe reactions? As what are you president of the Roasters Guild?

<Joe> Not even close. I am on the roastery guild executive council–

<Dave> There we go.

<Joe> And I guess my role there is, everybody who’s on the Executive Council is a chair or vice chair in some way and I am the chair of membership and communication so I get to talk to members and help with what gets put on the website, what content we put out there, and stuff like that.

<Dave> How would they get to the Roaster Guild website, Joe?

<Joe> It is

<Dave> Okay, and the purpose of Roaster Guild is…

<Joe> To connect all of your roasters out there and give you a place of forum where you are able to access content, build content, give to your community, find out what happenings are going on around the country, be supported in the events that you put on, be supported in the small groups that you may have around the country, or around the world. We are a global community, so

<Dave> You bet–

<Joe> We have members all over the globe.

<Dave> How many were there this weekend?

<Joe> 300 people were there at the Roaster’s Guild retreat.

<Dave> I worked with a roaster from Argentina, two fellows from Hawaii, a fellow from Taiwan,a fellow from England, a fellow from Poland, and Nick says 250 from the United Australia are gonna bounce from

<Joe> Don’t forget about Australia–

<Nick> Our good friend from Australia, who is watching us right now.

<Dave> Cami, hello! Australia we can’t ignore it down under. A wonderful session, good time with good people.Um, Joe two minutes of reaction to walking away with four for intense days with roasters all the way from mom and pop shops, novices, all the way up to a huge unnamed coffee company that everybody would recognize.

<Joe>Yeah it’s just outrageous when you can stand in a small machine with this green products and talk everything from the stuff we’re getting ready to talk to talk about, all the way to cupping notes and theories about roasting with people that are brand-new and people that have a PhD in biochemistry and in–

<Dave> Ceramic engineering.

<Joe> Engineering, and oh man. It’s just outrageous.

<Dave> And at the same time I worked with people that roast on one kilogram machines. I don’t want anybody to think I’m too small for something like Roaster Guild. Really fine organization.My wife said, what are you, how do youunderstand this weekend? I said this is continuing education. Coffee is one of those fields where unless I’m learning something that particular day, my boss would fire me.

<Joe> Yeah.

<Dave> Coffee is deep. You just, the more you know the more you realize you don’t know coffee.

<Joe> Yeah, learning is momentum and it’s kind of like riding a bike. As soon as you have no more momentum you’re falling down, so we should always be learning all of us.

<Dave> So that’s the plug for Roaster Guild,Steve wants to talk about Twitter and Instagram. This is @RoasterJoe, we are@MillCityRoaster and we’d like to follow you.So shoot us an email, what I’m most interested in is to have a friend capture a picture of you at your roaster so that we can follow you. So we’d love to build that social content because it’s moved from more than advertising to where information is shared on social media.

<Joe> And the more that you connect through social media into one hub, the more you’re able to exchange ideas and exchange your findings, as you’re roasting coffee. So it really does create community and camaraderie.

<Dave> And I use @BoldJava, I post infrequently about coffee but I post when there’s a piece of information to be shared. Something Novel, that’s either discovered or obscure that coffee roasters would do.I also post about baseball as I know Joe does so any baseball fans, follow Mill City Roaster, Roaster Joe, or Bold Java, we’d love to have you follow there.

<Joe> Plenty of selfies to go around you may see my kids too so–it’s a lot of fun.

<Dave> You won’t see my kids.Let’s see, first crack. We’ve been working with Joe and building segments of a roast. We’ve been talking apart about charge temperature, we’ve been talking about charge size, we’ve been talking about turn around, we’ve been talking about the drying phase of coffee, and Joe is going to talk about first crack so Joe this forum is yours, my friend.

<Joe> Why thank you, so as you can see here on the board there’s a lot of stuff to get through. It can be very, very complicated. I am not going to complicate this, but rather i’m hoping to simplify this as much as I possibly can and we’re going to, we’re going to start kind of simple they were going to get very complicated, and then we’re going to come back down to hopefully being very simple again. So hang with me and know that if you don’t have the time to sit down and watch through an entire episode it’s cool…there’s this wonderful feature on the internet called pause, so you can watch a little bit pause it go back, go do your work, come back at another time,mark where you stopped. We want you to take your time and digest these things.Also, understand i’m not a scientist so a lot of the things that i’m talking about here are things that I’ve learned in a similar way to how teaching them so if you are a scientist you know some of this stuff more in-depth, or better than I do or a way to explain it that I Am not explaining it,please reach out and let me know because i would love to bring that to the forefront. I am not the end-all be-all authority on all things coffee so–

<Dave> You are for me!

<Joe> Oh, I thank you.

<Dave> There we go and ask your questions away. Nick grabs these questions as Joe presents, and then Nick Will feed them in as Nick sees an appropriate time and place in Joe’s Lecture.

<Joe> Yeah, if I’m just teaching based on what I think you want to know, we’re going to have a disconnect I want to teach based on what you do want to know and what you are needing to know. Ok. Alright so I have the title he recalled: browning, first crack, development.These are all terms that we use within coffee kind of in a general way. The way that first crack has been adopted into our lexicon has been almost like this moment where–it’s like a magical moment,and then everything that happens prior to first crack is just building heat,everything that’s happening post first crack is something called development where we were where we are building flavor and I have to say that that is a myth and I Want to talk to you about why that’s a myth.What’s happening when and what importance first crack actually has to us and this term development, what does that actually mean? Ok? So we have those two stages of roasting: the first stage from the time that we have the charge to the time that our coffee is yellow, once again is something called endothermic. It’s an endothermic reaction where we’re absorbing heat and remember this is actually a myth, as well. We’re actually moving ever forward with momentum that’s why i have the dotted line here,so coffee starts at the room temperature from which you got your bag of coffee and put it in and then it’sever moving forward at a curve. Ok, so as this coffee is moving forward it absorbs heat, all of your free moisture leaves the coffee, and at that point when you start seeing some browning reactions that is where you are beginning what I would call development.You are now changing chemical compounds in the coffee into flavors. So there are a bunch of different chemical compounds that are within the coffee.ATP is a type of energy that is stored in the coffee and that ATP is broken down by the coffee plant in order to energize that plant. Within a seed, it’s stored in a way that that seed, when activated with water and in the ground will begin breaking it down okay.The plant uses a system called hydrolysis. Hydrolysis is where water is kind injected and pushed into the molecule and it cleaves that molecules into different molecules. So if you have a large molecule of cellulose, for instance, you can use the process of hydrolysis to create something called cellobiose. This process, or this compound through which hydrolysis happens is called cellobiose and then you can break it down to glucose, and of course glucose we know is a sugar. Ok, this is not what is happening within roasting. I hear a lot of times people talking about about hydrolysis and roasting, that’s actually not happening.That’s not the chemical reaction that we want to focus on. This is what happens in beer though. If you have that that grain you allow the grain to germinate and the hydrolysis process breaks down those starches into more simple sugars which are then soluble and which, of course,bacteria like to eat and burp out their gases and they make alcohol. However,we’re going to look at different reactions that are taking place. Now There are some people who have projected that early in the roast, prior to yellowing, there is some hydrolysis happening because we’re adding energy to the seed and that seed has water in it.Hydrolysis has to happen with water present. Once we’ve dried that coffee out,though, the water that is present is being manufactured by these processes of dehydration which are dehydrating molecules–were breaking those molecules down. Ok, so let’s focus mainly on these reactions. Ok, the maillard reaction starts taking place when we move out of yellow and we start seeing browning and we start smelling aromatics that are telling us that that reaction is happening. That is this list of things that I have here:ketones, furans, aldehydes, esters, phenolics, terpenoids, thiols. All of the– and there are more,these are all actually categories ofdifferent types of aromatic compoundsthat are created when we are roasting coffee.It is incredible. Underneath all of these we could list a whole bunch more. Ok, so now if I’m if I’m roasting my curve and I see that my curve is going kinda flat,or my curve is going kind of steep, ormy curve is perfect, and it looks like the Mona Lisa of all curves–guess what it doesn’t really matter. Doesn’t matter.I could stare at this curve all day long,and it’s not really telling me anything about the taste. Because at different kinds of heating, at different strengths different powers of energy that we’re pumping into that coffee, we can use that energy to cleave these base molecules, these large molecules into a whole range of potential aromatic compounds. So if my curve is flat on one coffee,it may make a certain type of ketone, if my curve is sharp on another coffee that may be what’s necessary for that particular molecule to make the same kind of ketone, for instance. It is so vast and so in-depth molecular and chemically that with our simple tools there’s no way to measure it.Actually with very advanced scientific tools there’s no way to measure exactly how our molecules are going to breakdown.That’s why bringing this back to a very simple answer to all of this you have to taste the coffee. If you’re looking at your curve and you are just driving hypothetical ideas of whether or not you roasted the coffee correctly based on how a curve looks, you have no idea what’s actually in the coffee, ok. Furthermore, if you look at something like, let’s just take ketones for instance, ketones are category of aromatic compounds. The majority of them are associated with aromatics such as butter, brown sugar, some of these really rich deep characteristics.However, others of these are related to fruit-like tones. So i could even think that I’m right about some kind of compound sounds that I am creating in the coffee through a certain roasting process and I could be totally wrong about what that compound is. Adding complication to that,when you have simple sugar which is a subset after these things have broken down these will become simple sugars such as glucose, fructose,and I’m sorry. Glucose and fructose are subsets of sucrose so if you have– even if you have sucrose in your original green coffee, through these processes they will break that sucrose down into its more simple sugar and then that simple sugar will break down very very quickly.It’s a very fragile molecule. Fructose Molecule is very very fragile. So a lot of seasoned roasters will also say that a lot of the sweetness that we get out of coffee is perceived sweetness, that the actual sugar content in brewed coffee is very very minimal so those ideas behind “I want to stay longer in caramelization in order to make my coffee sweeter,” or, “I want to stay longer in the maillard reaction in order to make my coffee sweeter,” that is actually a myth.You’re not going to make coffee sweeter by breaking down a sugar molecule.

<Dave> Joe, I think that bears repeating.

<Joe> Ok, so if you are thinking that by stalling out in a maillard reaction or by stalling out in caramelization that you enrich the sweetness of your coffee, which I would say correlates to body, as well, that you will not have that reaction. That is not going to be the result of what you’re trying to go for.Because if you have a sugar molecule and you break that sugar molecule it’s no longer a sugar molecule. If you have a complex sugar molecule, like for instance sucrose is a fairly complex sugar molecule,and you break that down into it it’s smaller sugar molecules, such as fructose, that fructose molecule will break very quickly. And when you are using heat, which is energy, but heat energy for these processes this is a domino effect. So it’s not like as soon as that sugar that sucrose molecule breaks it down to fructose, that you can then drop it out of the drum and capture that. These things are happening well before first track, well before first crack. As you are seeing browning in your coffee, and as you begin smelling aromatics that are not the aromatics of green coffee, you know that these reactions are taking place and by nature of that you’re you’re creating a chain-reaction a domino effect that will do away with any sugar that is actually in the coffee and simplify that. Now There are caveats to this: if you start with the coffee that has a very high sugar content then you’ll probably end up with the residual sugar left in that coffee being at a at a higher level. Ok, if you have a coffee that is very dense and holds a lot of material within it then that by nature says that you have more residual sugar at the end of your roast.Plus, it’s holding onto a little bit more of that. There are some theories that if you take a longer amount of time, which is what i preach with a more dense coffee, in this area that you may actually be able to cause some hydrolysis, to use some of the actual cellulose, which is the structural material of the seed, and go through this process while you are in this early stage and provide, and maybe build into the seed, more sugar than it had before you had it in the drum. Now that is theory, I don’t know–you can do flavor analysis on your coffee and do some experimentation. I would see that it would probably work for some it may completely destroy others so it’s not high or, hard-and-fast rule.Ok, do you have that rope you can pull me out of the weeds on?

<Dave> No, you’re doing fine.

<Joe> Okay, good.

<Dave> You’re using maillard and caramelization the same–

<Joe> So let’s talk about these,let’s break these up for a second.Talk about the difference and talk about the similarities. I’m using them the same because within our roasting process they are more than likely and generally are happening at the same time. Ok, so if I have a cell structure,there’s our little nucleus, this cell may have a whole bunch of sugar or potential sugar in it. Ok, this part of this cell if it’s isolated, if that sugar, is isolated and the heat starts breaking it down these molecules are going to start breaking and they’re going to have simple caramelization. Simple caramelization is going to happen. Simple caramelization is the dehydration of sugars through the heating effect so as it as you have your simple sugar and it breaks, gives off that molecule of carbon dioxide, gives off that molecule H20, and you have now something. It actually will give off furfuryl, which is a direct correlation to caramelization, and furfuryl is actually a bitter compound and its aromatic compounds. So whenever you say, “I smell sweetness,”you’re probably smelling something like this, it’s not actual sugar that yous mell. So this process is very simple.However, if there are amino acids present,you know proteins, and they’re generally are within coffee, there’s a lot more going on in that cell than just sugar hanging out, then you have the maillard reaction. And the maillard reaction is– I put plural here on purpose– it is a set, it’s an umbrella that covers hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of reactions. Because, for instance, if you have one type o f sugar with one type of amino acid,that those two will come together and depending on the arrangement that they come together at you can have several different reactions and the result of that could be several different compounds. Now, extrapolate that to coffee. With coffee,we are starting out with about 300 or more volatile or potentially volatile compounds within the green coffee itself.So the way that those react,that’s an exponential equation, the way that those react is basically incalculable onto our ability to sense exactly which reaction is happening in which style, at which time. We can’t do it.So that is why I kind of crammed these together, because there is so much going on there’s no way to know whether this is happening or this is happening and onour probe of course we could say that the maillard reaction happens at this temperature to this temperature, but our probe is not giving us exactly what that temperature is at this cellular level at any given moment.

<Dave> With this particular coffee.

<Joe> With this particular coffee, right or this particular drum material, or this particular amount of flame, or heat exchange that’s coming from the air.

<Dave> Joe, for those that aren’t on drum roasters,lot of home roasters view this and this is going to be roughly at about five minutes of a particular roast.

<Joe> Yeah.

<Dave> On a smaller electrical unit you may be up at the 6 to 7 minute roast but this is when all the green hues of that coffee are gone.Ok, roughly 320 to 340 degrees.

<Joe> It very much depends. On some probes I’ve seen will read this happening at 275 degrees, a lot of your larger Roasters will have it at a smaller, or at a lower temperature because there’s more bean mass around the probe. The probe is further away fromthe from the drum wall, so it really varies. But no matter what this temperature is, that doesn’t matter. What matters is on your drum where does it happen? And how long has it taken to get there? Or on your air roaster or whatever you have, and then how long is it going to take you to get from first crack–or from this to and through first crack? So now let’s talk about first crack. What is first crack? First crack is not a magical point at which the coffee now begins to go through a certain type of change. First crack is a reaction to all of these things happening. So as caramelization happens, you have your simple H20 and your simple carbon dioxide breaking off from that sugar.That’s why a lot of people say that first crack is a release of steam pressure. But it’s not just steam, all of these other things are volatile compounds that will break off of a molecule. Some of them will be stored in the seed and some of them will not. When You grind your coffee that beautiful aromatic expression that you get from coffee is these that are captured in the air, because they are gas, there now in the air and you’re smelling them. Ok, so as maillard reaction and caramelization happen, new molecules are created that are inflating that seed, you will have first crack. That’s why it’s really foolish of us to look at everything after first crack as being development because if we rush up the first track and then slow it down,we may have just missed all of this time where all of these things could be developed in the coffee .Ok, so that is why it’s really important for us to pay attention to all stages in the roast. Look at these marks as milestones, as transitional points where you can measure time, but that is another reason why i use thirty-second increments to measure my time is because I know that that will give me a closer snapshot as to how my curve is developing. Now, i just got done saying don’t sit there and study your curve, study your curve, study your curve. Sure, draw your curve,cup your coffee, then go back to your curve cut 20 different roasts, 20 different curves, cup them all. See which one has the expression of that coffee that you like the best, and then work your way backward through that curve starting with that time from first crack on, that has traditionally been”development.” I want to kill that word, I Just want to call this “Post First,” Okay?

<Dave> Can I get an amen?

<Joe> And I want to call this “Pre First,” okay and then first crack happens between yellow and first crack,we are browning. But browning happens all the way through.Ok, it continues to happen until you’re into blackening, ok. So browning would beat yellow that is an actual physical change where you’re converting from one type of energy change to another. You’re Converting from endothermic to exothermic.

<Dave> Explain the difference.

<Joe> So that endothermic, once again, you’re absorbing heat, absorbing energy.Exothermic there is now chemical change and every point where you have a breach of a compound, every point where you take a sugar and you break it,there’s a tiny bit of energy that is actually released so at that, when you go into exothermic heating–you are actually creating energy. You’re using energy to cause the reaction and then you’re using energy to make sure that that chain reaction continues to happen. But, that is actually creating energy at the same time.

<Dave> Is that why you pick up your airflow at first crack?

<Joe> Correct, yeah I pick up my air flow well before first crack because again first crack is a reaction, first crack is not the action,it’s a reaction. So if I have, here is another very key point I want you to think about, if I have some of this moisture left over, hanging out when I should be going through these, ifin this cell there’s a bunch of water just kind of hanging out, that water is quenching these reactions. I cannot have maillard reaction if I add water.I cannot have caramelization if I add water, and if you’re holding onto a lot of water in your drum or in your seeds then you are preventing these. Now there are theories out there, and again this may be a point where you stop and listen and now you’re going to start again,there are theories out there that you can stall your hydrolysis, or you can stall in this part, so in other words your curve would kind of flattened and then come back up–so a curve kinda like this–

<Dave> I’ve done that.

<Joe> There are theories that if you hold onto water here a little bit longer than you can kind of stall these from happening and then you can slowly let them happen so they don’t go too far and you hold onto more sugar. I would say that that is a theory that I have not had very good success with. Some roasters, you will have some more success with. This is what I would call a Diedrich Curve on an IR roaster or maybe even a roaster that has a lot of heavy metal,like for instance cast iron. Cast iron doesn’t really have good heat exchange,it holds onto its energy instead of giving its energy away. So on a cast-iron roaster, or a more conductive type of heating you’ll see this but convection really helps to get that moisture out of the way and allow you to go through these reactions. Ok, that’s why if you’re going through these reactions if you if you hit these reactions too fast then you’re just going to blow through all this stuff.You’re going to burn that out. If you hit too slow then you’re not going to really develop all of the flavors you might cleave those compounds down, but they’re not going to break into a bunch of fragmented,you know, diverse characteristics in that coffee. So you’ve got to find the sweet spot for every coffee, and how do you do that?Not by getting more and more technical equipment, not by getting molecular sniffers that are sniffing every single cell in the coffee. Of course, my nerd brain wants to have something like that so that I can control exactly what compounds on making at which time. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day,none of this matters, ok, to the point that– remember our analytical tool, our analytical tool– does it make you happy?Ok, so all of this is very complicated,all of this you need to know these things are happening because this is,this is going to help you realize that watching that graph and only paying attention to this is really distracting you from the reality of what’s happening.And the only thing that you really need to know is does it taste good? And can I make it taste better? And where in here do I go back to to get that taste that I Had before on that one roast that was perfect that one time. why did that happen? Ok, was it during the maillard reaction stage? Or was it something, you know, uncharacteristic about that coffee that day, what was it?

<Dave> So you’re saying tweaking profiles without cupping is immaterial.

<Joe> Yes, and by cupping, keep in mind we’ll use different terminology. We mean tasting the coffee. I don’t, I’m not going and Dave especially will not sit here and say that you need a cupping bowl with the exact amount of grams, exact amount of water, you need to go through a systematic cupping. That will help as you grow your business, to have its systematic. But if you’re using a brewer,if you’re using an espresso machine,whatever you are roasting for– if all of this is for espresso then you probably shouldn’t use a cupping bowl to make these analytical decisions. You should probably use an espresso machine.But taste, taste, taste, record, taste,record, record your roasts, record the things that are different, especially that’s why we look at first crack because it’s a mile post, it tells me of a specific moment and I can correlate a specific time and temp to when that first crack happened I can draw a box and I can mark that out, and if that box is bigger another time if I went further in time for another first crack those two coffees gonna taste different.It’s a good difference? Is a bad difference? Well, if I never measured where first crack happened I don’t know how to go backward so measure all of your milestones, measure your time over temp, and go back to that information after you have tasted the coffee.

<Dave> Very good, Joe let’s back up a little bit, as a refresher from your previous sessions, we start with coffee about 10.5% water.

<Joe> Generally, yep.

<Dave> By the time we get to the yellow phase how much water is left?

<Joe> Generally, that’s about 1.5% to 2%.

<Dave> Ok, so during that drying phase we’re not getting rid of all the water we’re getting rid of most of the water.

<Joe> It’s hard to tell because it could be the case that we are getting rid of the free water but we’re already starting to create more.

<Dave> But that drying phase is critical because it’s that water activity that that creates, that drives all the chemical compound changes that you’re talking about here.

<Joe> Yes, so if you have, for instance, if you have a sponge and you want to heat this sponge and you want to heat something on top of the sponge if that sponge is dry and you put it on a burner you won’t feel any heat on the other side of sponge. If that sponge is wet and you put it on a burner, that water will pull heat from the burner to the top of the sponge.It’s conductive. So if we can use this water while it’s around to drive energy into the center of the core of bean so we can get all of these the reactions to start taking place in a uniform way, then we can control those reactions a little bit more and by”controlling” I mean recreate the same roast each time we want to go back and roast it. So we’re just setting ourselves up for success by using that water.

<Dave> Very good, and then practically, I’m just driving to practical end questions.

<Joe> Thank you.

<Dave> And let’s just say on my unit I get 330 as myend of “pre first,” how about that pre first instead of browning?

<Joe> Sounds good.

<Dave> Alright.I pick up my air there and my own sense of it, as a roaster, is I’m moving into a convective phase and I need that air to drive that convective energy, is that correct?

<Joe> That’s right. Convection is a more efficient way of heating coffee,or anything. If you bake bread you know that a convection oven will bake your bread faster than a conventional oven will bake your bread. A convection system for coffee is more efficient, if you are air roaster you know this.You’re done with your coffee in six minutes, it roasts very very quickly. You can easily skip over some of these reactions though, so having a little conduction having that convection to back up that efficiency of energy in a controlled way gives you exactly the outcomes you want.

<Dave> Very good.What’s the toughest part that you had to learn as you were roasting on the units up at PT’s?

<Joe> Uh, Kaldis.

<Dave> Kaldis!How many times have I done that?

<Joe> I don’t know.

<Dave> I do.

<Joe> So, at Kaldi’s we were very focused on the sensory side of coffee, so we didn’t like sit down and break down exactly when–is maillard doing this, is caramelization doing that?– we didn’t sit and study all of the profiles and in judge, oh I think your profile was a little high here, ora little low there. We went to the cupping room, and we cupped. So the biggest learning curve is learning how to taste,and being calibrated with not only your team, but everybody in coffee. So Calibration, tasting, and figuring out when I taste this in the coffee, I know that I need to go back and look at this in my profile.

<Dave> Very good.

<Joe> When you do that you know best with a team.

<Dave> Very good, and so idea there is to be tasting with a team, rather than just yourself.

<Joe> Tasting with the team,that’s why we do things to hopefully facilitate some of that like the event you have coming up where you all will submit coffee and we’ll taste those coffees and we’ll evaluate for ,you know, how those coffees are tasting.

<Dave> Yeah,and the other thing Joe with tasting,evaluating cupping, whatever you want to call it, I found for myself that I learn more within a group that we were able to build on one another’s knowledge exponentially rather than just drilling down on the table every Friday Afternoon. You put three or four people and they don’t have to be serious,they don’t have to be coffee experts, but they do want to learn. They do want to grow together, so I really encourage guys,people if you’re serious about tasting,evaluating, moving along your palate for sensory determination, do it within the group.

<Joe> Yes, please.

<Dave> Nick, any questions for us today?

<Nick> I’ve been telling them to hold off for our next session that way you guys can hear all three.

<Joe> Okay, cool.

<Dave> Alright, that sounds good.

<Joe> Alright, well thank you all for listening,I know it got a little dense at times. I Hope that you have opportunities to kinda go back through and and listen in. If I said anything that is wrong or weird or something, please revisit it with me.I’m happy to learn and admit where I am wrong.

<Dave> This kind of stuff everybody knows that I slept through biology both in high school and college,

<Joe> And I did not.

<Dave> Yes, this is the kind of thing that I’m going to watch three or four times. I’m going to be doing some reading on the caramelization, simple sugars, complex sugars. I’m going to be reading about carbohydrates, and their interaction with water and heat.I’m going to be reading a little bit about maillard, if I remember correctly he was the father of French food science, is that right?

<Joe> That’s right.

<Dave> Ok. I’m going to look at my own roasting and understanding it a little bit differently.All that’s the way of saying, for me,there’s a lot of meat here to chew on.I don’t expect to absorb this in the the 24 minutes that Joe covered it. But, it’s time for me just to take three or four nuggets out of here and build on them.

<Joe> That’s right.

<Dave> What I’m going to ask our viewers to do is send questions into dave@millcityroasters.comor In September, we’re going to have two events:the first will be Roaster School, where Joe fields all the equipment and all this plant physiology and physics and thermals and all of that stuff. And so we’ll cover that in Roaster School in September. The 30th of September, 2 p.m. Central Time,Joe will lead a group of probably six professional cuppers, six professional coffee couple people here -six professional coffee people here in town through the seven finalists in our Focus on the Roast. We had 115 applicants this year.

<Joe> That’s a lot.

<Dave> Nick is exhausted. Nick, Katie, and Matt bangedout those packets of 10 pounds each yesterday so they’re on their way to the –

<Nick> Four hours. 115.

<Dave> Four hours you got them done in?

<Nick> We’re quick.

<Dave> Good work, good work. Excellent team here at Mill City Roasters, as well as Cafe Imports. I think that’s a wrap. Joe, good session, my friend.

<Joe> Thank you. Thank you all for listening.


<Joe> That’s right.

<Dave> for twitter,instagram – love pictures of your photos.Thanks for watching it.

<Joe> Bye!

<Nick> See ya!



Addicted to coffee at a young age, Nick has turned his caffeinated attention towards coffee roasting education. Behind the scenes, Nick produces, directs, and edits all video series for Mill City Roasters.